Rodger Wada is the Senior Regional Director of Revenue Management at Springboard Hospitality, a leading third-party hotel management company that specializes in driving revenue and operational success for independent and branded hotels across the US. With nearly two decades of experience in hospitality, he has built a strong reputation in the Hawaii market, leading revenue strategy across prominent Waikiki properties.
Rodger has held leadership roles with companies such as Highgate, Kokua Hospitality, and Outrigger Resorts, working across both branded and independent assets. His expertise spans pricing, distribution, and commercial strategy, with a focus on aligning revenue decisions with operations to drive sustainable performance.
What separates a hotel revenue manager who runs the numbers from one who actually moves the bottom line? For Rodger Wada, the answer comes back to the same place every time: operations.
Rodger Wada is Senior Regional Director of Revenue Management at Springboard Hospitality, a third-party hotel management company that runs independent and lifestyle properties across the US. He started as a concierge at Sheraton in Waikiki, moved through front desk and guest service at Outrigger, and got pulled into revenue management almost by accident when his assistant general manager noticed his civil-engineering background and said, "You must be good at math." Today he leads commercial strategy across some of Waikiki's most prominent hotels, and that operations background still shapes how he reads a P&L.
In this episode of The Lights On Podcast, Kin Sio talks with Rodger about the practical side of hotel revenue management: how to rebuild ADR after a renovation without breaking rate integrity, why guest service scores (not occupancy) should trigger your next rate push, and where GDS costs hide inside branded P&Ls. They walk through the three-step playbook Rodger uses when he steps into an underperforming hotel, dig into why "every channel has a cost, including direct," and make the case that finance needs a seat at the commercial table alongside revenue, marketing, and sales.
This episode is sponsored by Lights On.
Lights On helps hotels grow revenue more consistently by managing pricing, distribution, and digital marketing together.
We help hotels identify new revenue opportunities, so they don't leave money on the table. We also manage the full revenue and marketing operation, enabling the on-the-ground team to focus on the guest experience.
If your hotel needs stronger revenue growth, visit lightson.co to learn more.
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Kin Sio: Welcome back to the Lights On Podcast. I'm Kin Sio, CEO of Lights On and your host today. On this podcast, we share stories from across hospitality about building and growing hotel businesses. This episode is sponsored by Lights On. We help hotels grow their revenue more consistently by managing pricing, distribution, and digital marketing together. We help hotels identify new revenue opportunities so they don't leave money on the table. We also run the full revenue and marketing operations so the team on the ground can stay focused on the guest experience. If your hotel needs more revenue growth, visit lightson.co to learn more.
Our guest today is Rodger Wada. Welcome, welcome. Rodger is the Senior Regional Director of Revenue Management at Springboard Hospitality, one of the leading third-party hotel management companies in the US. Rodger is based in Honolulu and is one of the most respected revenue management professionals in the Hawaiian market. He started his career in hotels as a concierge at Sheraton, then moved on to front desk operations at Outrigger, then held revenue leadership roles at Highgate, and really worked his way over 20 years of experience in hotels, now leading revenue strategy across some of Waikiki's most iconic properties. Rodger, welcome to the show.
Rodger Wada: Thank you for having me, Kin.
Kin Sio: Why don't we start all the way back to the beginning of your career. So concierge at Sheraton, right? What made you want to make the transition over time to revenue management?
Rodger Wada: Revenue management came suddenly for me as I progressed through the operation side. So I started off at concierge, I've done reservations, and I went to front desk, and I was promoted to guest service manager for an Ohana at the airport property, which was under management of Outrigger at the time.
And I guess the revenue manager at the time suddenly departed, and my assistant general manager came up to me and goes, "Hey, I saw you used to be in civil engineering in college, so you must be good at math." And I was like, "Yeah, it comes natural to me." And he's like, "You want to try revenue management?" I'm like, "I've never been in the discipline before, but if you're confident in me, yeah, sure, I can take it on and start from there." No background, I just jumped in.
And it was challenging because I had no background, but it came very natural to me. The whole analytics — it was my second nature, and I just fell in love with it. And I'm here today.
Kin Sio: Coming in by accident, you just figured out this is your superpower. That's a great start. So compared to other folks who might have started in the revenue management career because they dream about doing analytics in this industry, it's kind of different, right? Coming with the operation background, what do you think makes you unique and different versus somebody who might be starting with a finance or data background that wouldn't have learned from the operational side of things?
Rodger Wada: Yeah, I think I bring a holistic perspective of how the entire business works. When you come from a background just understanding data analytics, revenue management decisions impact quite a bit on the operations side. So having the understanding and being conscious of how your decisions impact operationally and the overall business — that makes things more seamless.
When we make a decision at our level in revenue management, whether we package or anything, understanding how that logistically comes through in an operation just makes things seamless, less hurdles and challenges. I think that makes myself easier to work with as a team and become very cohesive with my colleagues.
Kin Sio: Yeah, interesting. Is there a moment early in your revenue career that your operations background helped you change a decision you would have made — that a pure finance person would have gotten wrong?
Rodger Wada: Yeah, I think having the background, I was able to make changes in the SOP of things, how to do things. Sometimes when you're looking at it from a back-end side, it could make sense from a revenue perspective, but it might be a lengthy process on the operations side. So when you understand both sides, you can come up with a better solution on how to improve the process versus having that revenue management only or finance background. Understanding operations is definitely a huge plus.
Kin Sio: Yeah. Any quick example you could think of — something that you could change in the SOP that actually makes sense on both sides of the table?
Rodger Wada: So that's a good question. What comes to my mind first is, I used to work at the airport hotel, which was very TLA heavy — military people PCSing. And there was a pretty big operational process, because it's pretty extensive and how long they stay and whatnot. Every time they needed to change rates, they just didn't use the correct rate codes. They're like, "We're just going to use the BAR rate because it's easier to do." And I get it, easier to do. But obviously that doesn't help from the analytics side.
So now that I moved into the revenue world, I was able to explain to the staff, "Hey, I understand this is a difficult process, but we do this for a reason." Before, they didn't understand why they did what they did. Because I've done both sides, I can understand — this is your process right now, and adding this on makes your process longer, but there's a reason, and it's to help our productivity moving forward.
By myself understanding how operations works, I was able to explain to the operation team, "We're doing this for X, Y, Z reasons." And I can reciprocate what they're going through. So they believe what I say more easily. They understand where I'm coming from, and they understand that I understand what they're coming from. And this was a union property too, so it takes a lot to change an SOP process. You need to get buy-in from staff before any changes, so they're not feeling like somebody is asking them to change something — "This guy's sitting in the high tower, not knowing what's on the ground."
Kin Sio: Yeah, because from a staff standpoint, it's typically just "because" — we're going to change just because. And we're not really explained about the reasons why. But when you're able to explain that, they get it. It's much more seamless and it builds good trust between revenue and operations.
And just for listeners on this show who are not familiar with the Hawaii market — Rodger was just mentioning the airport hotel, the Honolulu airport hotel, which is one of the many hotels in the market here that are unionized. So definitely the labor force, the people, the team on the ground — there will be different staffing challenges that the revenue team will be working with here. And TLA stands for temporary lodging allowance, which is a US military benefit. Military members and family, when they travel, can use that as a program to stay at lodging here. This is actually a big part of the business for the Hawaii market.
This is great. Just thinking from that operations background perspective, it almost gives you a lot of humbling experience. And I know you like to talk about passion and humility in this game. Aside from the operations background, what does humility actually look like in the revenue management role?
Rodger Wada: I think some people have this perspective like revenue management right now has — what's the right term — power. It's just because we have a lot of control. But at the same time, we have to be humble. I think that's one of my biggest lessons I've learned. Sometimes it's not about just being correct, but it's also understanding different perspectives. Operations has their challenges. Marketing has their challenges. Sales has their challenges.
And I think what makes a good revenue leader is understanding each of those perspectives and incorporating all of that versus just pushing through your perspective. In the beginning, I lacked that, to be honest. And I think throughout my career, that's been a big learning lesson for me — the humility aspect that made me grow. That's what resonates the most within me.
Kin Sio: And I think that's a big philosophy that we believe in too. Thinking about different teams operating in silos — we talk about operations, we talk about revenue, but there's also marketing and other aspects. And sometimes they all speak their own languages, operating in their own world. But I think the true moment of collaboration is when everybody is actually working hand in hand.
I think that really forms the whole — now we talk a lot more about commercial strategy, which is like you can't really put one perspective on a pedestal. Everything has to flow through just what you're talking about — operations and revenue. There are so many things that need to be translated on both sides. Imagine adding other layers. Now marketing is in place. Now we're talking about procurement and supplies and things like that.
Understanding that is honestly a superpower, especially in the era of AI. You can get something done easily, but can you explain something clearly so that people who don't know your background or your discipline actually understand in their language why certain things need to be done a certain way? I think we share that humbling experience with the work that we do too.
So, follow-up on that — being correct. Sometimes as revenue managers, we've got the myth of "we need to be numerically correct." Can you give me an example or moment where data was telling you one thing, but with what you know from other disciplines — that humility aspect — man, you've got to do something different, even though the data is telling you a different story?
Rodger Wada: Yeah, look, it's funny because on my first job, I kind of go back to the airport story. I had an incident with my GM. I don't know the specific content — I kind of forgot about that — but I knew that I was presenting something and based off of data, I was like, "No, I think we should go this direction." Obviously different perspectives were discussed and I'm like, "No, I think based on these numbers, I really don't think that's the right way to go." I kind of fought back, and at that time my communication was very raw, very direct.
And sometimes you have to understand your audience. In that situation, we had a lot of people in that meeting, and if it's a more closed audience, you can be more open and more candid. But sometimes it's not always correct to say what's right. Sometimes you've got to understand your audience. Because what happens if you prove a leader wrong in a very — not derogatory way, but you know what I mean? There's a lot of people who look up to these leaders, and when you prove them wrong, the trust within the team gets wavered. And you're the cause of that.
So for me, my lesson at the time was, understand your audience and maybe choose a different time to bring things up, or pull a side conversation and discuss that. Because I didn't even give my leader the opportunity to see that information beforehand. It came out at that meeting for the first time. So I didn't think it was fair. Yes, I was correct — we saw the numbers on the board, I was correct — but that's not the point at times.
Especially in an industry where you're working with people, you've got to understand the dynamic and put things in context, because it's so easy to take things out of context in this day and age.
Kin Sio: It's not about being right or wrong. Sometimes it feels like it's the same as in our personal relationship life — dating and things like that. The goal is not about who's right or wrong. It's about how everyone is on board to go in a certain direction together.
And we've seen this ourselves — even us personally, we've made that mistake. "Hey, the numbers prove it, it's going to be the right thing to do." But until you get everybody on board to try to do that, you're butting heads. And it turns out it could be less productive even if you have the right answer, when now you've just stood apart, everybody's not having a great time, not wanting to collaborate. It could make things worse.
Rodger Wada: No, exactly. Yeah.
Kin Sio: Okay. So let's move the timeline forward a little bit. Let's talk about the Courtyard Waikiki Beach. You've mentioned it's the proudest work that you've had, right? Can you walk me through what you walked into when you started managing the property and what you changed?
Rodger Wada: Yeah. My first day when I arrived at the property, I didn't know my ownership was in town — or my asset manager. And that was my first meeting, in-person meeting with the asset manager. And I understood the importance of the property succeeding. That's the beginning.
And shortly after, renovation started. Anyone who's gone through renovation — it's tough to go through renovation. And unfortunately — or fortunately — I went through the experience of my entire exec team turning over at once. I don't know how long — I think it was a little less than a month — I was by myself. I was the only exec team member left. And I had to pretty much cover each role.
I remember having to be the point of contact with the asset manager for the renovation. So all the communications and reports after the turnover, I got to put that together. My sales team, my DLS wasn't there. So I remember having to do the Marriott RFP process, because I think it was June, July time. Then my housekeeping director was gone. So I had to help housekeeping. I am definitely not the best — there's a reason why housekeeping is the one department I was not meant for.
Kin Sio: You're basically the GM.
Rodger Wada: Well, you just have to, right? Because unfortunately, just the situation. While it was tough, it was my most valuable experience. I learned so much. And to this day, I actually appreciate that experience. At that time, I was like, "Oh my God." It was tough. But I learned a valuable lesson. I have much more appreciation for each discipline. And it was very humbling.
As I said, when I first got into revenue, it's like, "Yeah, revenue presses all the buttons." It made me realize that's not the case. It takes the entire team, really. Everyone says it — "Oh yeah, it takes a team." That was my humbling realization that no, it really takes a team to make the hotel succeed. Yeah, revenue matters, but man, without every player, a hotel is not going to be successful.
Kin Sio: Yeah. You actually see the real life after a button is clicked. That's the actual execution process. And if you don't have perspective on that part, to your point, you could be pretty isolated, just being a person sitting in a high tower. Who cares about what you say.
I can see why humility is a theme for your career and how you got to where you are. So from that experience, while you're doing all of the above, basically the GM — let's focus on the revenue and the commercial side of things. At the time, staff turnover, leadership turnover all happening, very likely the property is underperforming. In that case, with all these levers that you had to pull as a revenue person — still your main job — how did you balance out rate, occupancy? What was the formula? What kind of principles were you operating with at that time to protect the property?
Rodger Wada: Well, it takes careful crafting of your overall strategy, short-term and long-term. Because we know that if you're too heavy on a short-term strategy, you could hurt your rate integrity for the future. So really understanding, okay, from what point to what point are you going to be aggressive with rates — for example, go after occupancy.
So really understanding — renovation too — it's all about rebranding. The messaging, the PR, and understanding when you start pushing your rates up. That was really important because people get comfortable. Once you start dropping your rate to get your occupancy, owners are kind of okay for the moment with the cash flow coming in. It's easy to get really comfortable with that. But that's where you've got to be disciplined. "I know it's getting comfortable, but we need to flip that switch somewhere."
And of course, then you've got to involve everyone. Operationally, things need to improve first — which is the guest service score. And that's why there's a huge emphasis on, "All right, let's start pushing rates when that score goes up." Because obviously during renovation, the scores are down — there's noise complaints, et cetera. So that's a gauging point too. We choose certain reference points of "okay, after X, Y, Z starts to improve, then we can start pushing our rates." Or if sales is able to start getting corporate business back — with Marriott especially, they go away for a while when you're going through renovation and they start coming back.
So it's really working closely with each of your team members and making sure, okay, what measurement are we going to use to start pushing rates? Sales productivity, operationally — that's been very important in overall strategy.
Kin Sio: Yeah. And I appreciate you mentioning that guest service score. Especially to your point, going down is easy. Trying to inch your rate back up one step at a time — that's the hardest. And I feel like sometimes it's hard from an owner's perspective. They always say, "Hey, I need higher ADR." But if you just crank up the rate, people are going to push back. "Okay, now why the heck are you doing that? What additional value or what additional experience are you creating to justify the increase?"
What are the small things that people tend to overlook aside from guest service that will be critical to push up your ADR?
Rodger Wada: It's actually managing expectations. We understand when you come out of a renovation, you want a big boost. But it just depends on the market. And let's be specific with the Waikiki market — Honolulu — there's literally 70, 80 other hotels. So there's competition. Of course you have to first understand the market because it's very saturated. Understanding the market, wherever you are, understanding competitors, how do you fit into that equation.
And from there, it's got to be gradual. This popping of rates — because the first thing I look at is the guest service score. Because that shows value. It shows you, okay, how are you different from your competitors? And that's where people are willing to pay the price. But if you jump from — I'm just using an arbitrary number — $100 to $200, that's a huge jump. Even though your product should be at $200, you still got to kind of...
Kin Sio: It's not binary. It has to be a ladder up to that level.
Rodger Wada: And like you said, binary — it's not zero-one. But that's kind of how it's perceived. Because when you're not in the market, the perspective is like it's zero-one. Either I'm a budget property or I'm this elevated boutique property. So there's an in-between and there's a process. And I think we need to understand the importance of that process to get to your goal. Because the expectation is "I want that process to be as minimal as possible and just go from zero to one real quick."
Kin Sio: Yeah. It looks easy on the spreadsheet, right? Because if you don't know what happens after the button is clicked — if you're purely looking at the Excel spreadsheet, going from one column to another, it's like, okay, this month going to next month, it definitely could feel binary.
Rodger Wada: It really does. And that's the reason why communication is very important — actually, I think the most important aspect. It's actually a living thing, because it's based on human behavior. That's what our industry is actually about — human behavior. And there are infinite factors that could affect how we produce.
So really understanding those factors and letting everyone know why things are happening the way they are — that's actually our job as revenue management. To really understand that and translate it and see what the best course of action is to reach your goal. And sometimes it might be the long way around, but that might be the best course.
Kin Sio: Yeah. Well, taking that to a hypothetical scenario — let's say you're stepping into a new hotel you're going to manage that commercially is underperforming. So you have to come in and do the evaluation and thinking about the next course of actions. What are the first three things you will look at?
Rodger Wada: The first thing I look at is how did we produce historically? I need to look at the historical production — really look at it by market segment, by channel, how we were producing, the behavior, like how did we change our rates previously.
And from there, I put together what I call an algorithm. I have a hypothesis of, okay, what competitors really affect me, what price range, and how do I want to move my price range according to the market and the competitor. So I have a hypothesis — "I think this is where I need to be between" — and depending on the demand and your internal compression, like how much more I can push. Because what I notice a lot when I jump into a new property — interestingly enough, people have a cap. Especially at a budget property: "Oh, because I'm a budget property, I can't go over this rate." And many times I've exceeded that.
So I take off all the initial preconceptions — the thoughts, expectations — and just test it out. I need to see it for myself, test out my hypothesis, and then go from there. But obviously, in order to do that, I need to study my historicals, my data, in every perspective I can.
And one thing that gets missed a lot is actually upsells. I think it's very important to study that too, because people just worry about the entry-level pricing and they don't look at their upsell at all.
Kin Sio: And this is not just about room upgrades, right? Are you talking about any sort of ancillary revenue?
Rodger Wada: Utilization, yes. Because a lot of times, the higher tier categories — there's less and less production. And you end up just upgrading. And that's where a big opportunity is. Really understanding your source of business. Where are these people coming from? Is it a drive-in? And in Hawaii, there is no drive-in, technically speaking. So that's what makes Hawaii much more complex. Because technically, we are finite demand — it just depends on the airlift.
But anyway, understanding your source of business, and learning that source too. For example, Hawaii — we get 40% of our flight traffic from California. So we want to understand how California travelers book. And we're realizing right now in the market, the booking window is so short. These people are willing to book the day of for the day of, which is completely different from pre-COVID.
And I bring it up specifically because a lot of people still talk about year-over-year pace. I'm not saying that's not an important data point, but definitely don't want to make that your only source of indication. Because that could lead to missteps. So just really understanding every aspect. When you're talking about pace — one month, last quarter — getting more granular, not just looking at overall data points.
Kin Sio: How do you... Yeah. Sorry, I'll let you finish and I'll ask my follow-up.
Rodger Wada: Oh, sorry. Yeah. So my first step is understand, study the data, then put together an algorithm — what you want to do, what you want to implement. And from there, distribution. Distribution is important. Understanding how it's set up. Because typically, when something's not going right, there's something wrong in your system. So you really have to learn your system.
Fundamentals are so important. If you don't know your system well, you've got to first learn your system. Whether it be SynXis, whether you're in a brand like the Marriott system — you have to learn the system. If you don't know your system, you cannot fully optimize your property. So you've got to know your system.
Kin Sio: Yeah. We actually just did another recording with Dan Wacksman, a local consultant and the owner of the platform Hawaii Hotel Hui. He did a lot of consulting for technology stack audits, selection, and all that. One golden nugget he talks about was coming in — and this is from both a revenue and cost perspective — audit your system, understand your system, get all the contracts, know how much you're paying for them. Are you actually utilizing all of the features?
Because on the cost side of things, you might be paying all these costs that you don't even utilize. I think that's one big cost saving from the bottom-line perspective. The other part, to your point — if you don't know your system, what it's capable of, what kind of distribution channels you have, you might be leaving money on the table too. So yeah, it's such an important aspect that people tend to miss because when it comes to technology, people think it's outside of their job description.
Rodger Wada: You know, because we always talk about technology. And this is a lot of tech companies, actually — I'm not knocking any tech company — I think we kind of lose the emphasis on training. It's actually right to that point because, yeah, a lot of us know a good part of how to utilize our system. But I don't think a lot of us say, "Oh, I know 100% how to utilize every aspect of SynXis," for example. But if we did, we could pull a lot more levers than what we even use. So I do think investing in each of the players is important.
Kin Sio: Yeah. Actually, since we are on the topic of technology — something more specific about Springboard, the company you work at right now. One thing I want to confirm before my next question, because I saw a case study about PTG Consulting helping Springboard standardize the whole technology stack across all the independent properties. Is that still the case? Are you guys working with the same technology stack across different properties right now?
Rodger Wada: That's our goal. Obviously, with different properties, different markets — for a 500-key hotel versus a 100-key hotel, there's different investments you want to make. So unfortunately not everyone can have the same system, but as much as possible, yeah — because it makes it more seamless to implement strategies. As I said, the more you know about your system, the more efficient you can be. So I do think it's an important strategy to utilize the same product for our properties. I think a lot of management companies are doing that. It's just much more efficient.
Kin Sio: Yeah, and to your point, it could be a philosophical question. Knowing that especially in the independent space, in many shapes and forms the product could be so different — thinking about standardizing that, what are the biggest challenges? Is that truly the right thing to do for different products?
Rodger Wada: Yeah, I know, especially when we're talking about the bottom line — your EBITDA. When we say standardized, I think people start thinking, "Oh, we have to use the same system." I'm just going to throw out there that the main ones are Opera and SynXis. Does every single property need to use Opera and SynXis? No. I think when we say standardized — okay, if you fall into this type of independent hotel, then maybe this is the most efficient system. If you fall into this type of property, maybe SiteMinder or whatever's out there could be your standard.
So I do want to clarify that — each type of property could be more efficient and cost-efficient. I think it's important for us to understand each of the products and the technologies out there. I think a lot of management companies and owners are like, "No, we're just going to use this one system and roll it out to every single property." But that kind of defeats the independent aspect, because the whole point of independent is being unique, being flexible, being able to navigate quickly versus a more stagnant brand, for example.
When you start saying every independent has to be this way, it takes out that advantage from an independent property. So I think there should be a certain level — certain independents this, certain independents that.
Kin Sio: Yeah. Well, let's talk about the universal, standardized language for hotels — top line and bottom line. I think this is the part where it tends to be more aligned, but not so much, especially in revenue management. Because I think for the longest time — I think to this day — lots of professionals still emphasize the top line, the RevPAR, and all that, versus what I noticed you mention a lot about the bottom line — the GOP, the net operating income. These are truly what an operator, what an asset manager, what an owner cares about, because this is money getting into the bank account.
I see our industry in general is still lagging behind on that concept. How do you think about that? And what do you think the challenge is to keep revenue professionals from thinking about the bottom line like an owner?
Rodger Wada: I've always been about EBITDA and understanding it. I mean, look, to be honest, that's been a challenge too, especially when you're bringing in new people in the industry. Looking at the P&L — that should be the first thing. I don't care what division you are — sales, GM, revenue — end of the day, we're managing an owner's asset. An important thing is EBITDA.
And I also understand it a lot because, depending on the investment, their interests are different. I'm not saying that's our job, but I feel in this competitive market, the more you understand that and can communicate to ownership at that level, the more trust you'll get. So I've always looked at the bottom line — understanding what the impact is going to be.
Because yeah, to your point, when I first started, it was so easy — "Oh yeah, let's just inflate our rate, add all these packages, free breakfast, free days, free this." And when the P&L comes up, it's like, "Why is my service recovery line — why is my expense line so huge versus the budget?" That's the first question that's going to come up.
So I think this is where experience matters. Experienced directors of revenue, they're in these ownership meetings and they know that gets questioned. So they're more careful in crafting different types of strategies and promotions and packages. And same with the sales side — yeah, it's easy to sell a consortia rate with an agency at a very high rate, but okay, we don't think about GDS costs. We don't think about the reservation costs through our CRS and commission. And typically, those are way more costly.
So yeah, I think end of the day, the most important thing is GOP PAR — actually, or even more, sustainable EBITDA PAR. What is your true bottom line? How does it affect the bigger picture? And I think when you strategize accordingly, we should all be on the same page on that, to be honest.
Kin Sio: Yeah. Well, and think about in between. I think everyone needs to take the first step from thinking just pure top line. In between top line and bottom line, there's still something in the middle. I think you mentioned the distribution costs — the cost of acquisition through a certain channel. How should people think about that? Because that obviously gets into the OTA versus direct versus all the different distribution channels — a huge Pandora's box that we're opening right now. But yeah, how should people think about cost of acquisition to start with?
Rodger Wada: First, they need to understand that there's cost in each channel.
Kin Sio: Even direct.
Rodger Wada: Even direct. Yeah, even direct. To be honest, to your point, I don't think a lot of people understand that. And I think — man, I am probably going to open a Pandora's box by saying this — we're not incentivized properly. We're incentivized within our own discipline, but end of the day, is that helping out our ultimate goal?
So I'm going to kind of leave it there, but at the end of the day, we're here to try to make our ownership happy. That's our ultimate goal as a team. And it is important to understand the costs, because then you can start thinking — for example, with direct. A lot of people in the Hawaii market think it's just Kama'aina and BAR, and that's it. Maybe membership. But it's like, okay, well, how much does it really cost to get that OTA booking? And when you understand the cost, then you realize, oh, there's actually a lot of playing space on the direct side.
And the other part, too, that people talk about — "Oh, OTA is very expensive." And I'm like, no. They're like, "What do you mean?" And I'll be like, "Dude, the GDS channel is actually very expensive." We don't see that, especially in a brand too, because when you look at branded properties, that gets lumped up in your invoice. I don't know what line item that typically is, but it gets lumped up, so people don't even really know unless you ask for a detailed invoice — manually ask for that.
So even from a brand standpoint, they don't get it. Like, "Oh yeah, Marriott gets all these direct bookings," but when it comes to the GDS channel, you might want to take a closer look at the details.
Kin Sio: Definitely take a closer look.
Rodger Wada: Yeah, so every time we talk about costs, people always talk about independent hotels, but even from a brand standpoint, there's cost in there. It's just, we don't look at it. A lot of us don't look at it in depth, or even the GMs. I learned it from one GM that I worked under before, and that's why I dial into this, but yeah, it's important.
Kin Sio: Yeah, until you learn that level of detail — even looking at the P&L, you don't see that breakdown. And you just assume. And wrong assumptions are almost the muscle of all evils. Especially in a rougher time like what we are facing right now — thinking about every single lever you can pull to not just increase incremental revenue but also thinking about things that you can reduce costs with.
I think distribution has to be part of the whole revenue strategy discussion, because many times people still think about these as two separate disciplines when they're not. We have professionals actually — Bernard Pan from Castle — we're going to have a show with him very soon. He now talks about revenue management as inseparable from distribution. I think that kind of stuck with me for a while.
Rodger Wada: Yeah, you know what? My ultimate ask for this new AI — and I'm surprised we don't have it today — is how do we incorporate all the costs associated by rate level seamlessly into our BI? Because right now, let's say you have a BI — from revenue management, it's all top line. But if we can seamlessly incorporate all the costs associated by rate level, I think that's going to change a lot of perspectives. I think that's the future in technology.
This is what I'd call hotel management, right? Because it's not even revenue anymore. I think it'll be important for us to evolve our discipline. From commercial — we call it commercial, we put it together. Yes, it's important to collaborate between revenue, marketing, and sales. But finance needs to come into that because at the end of the day, we can't make a decision that's going to be costly, literally and figuratively.
Kin Sio: Exactly.
Rodger Wada: We always think finance and revenue are separate when they're together. I work with my finance team so closely. I personally think it's imperative.
Kin Sio: It is a challenge to break down silos. Because even many commercial teams today, we can't even break down the silos between marketing and revenue. Now, finance — it's like way down the road. I think it's always about setting up the right strategy and goal so that people can all walk in the same step. Talking about communication, everybody talking the common language — I think those are all really good starting points. But I think it's less about the discipline and more about just commercially, everyone working at the same property all having a say in the commercial strategy of the hotel. To your point, hotel management is not just revenue management or whatever management.
So, branded versus independent — because I mentioned that talking about GDS, and you have experience with both. How different is the approach, especially for distribution, for branded versus independent? And where this show is for a lot of independent hoteliers — what are the things that independent hotels still leave the most money on the table compared to their branded competitors?
Rodger Wada: I think where branded does a great job — and the reason people go with a brand — is the membership. That's the biggest difference. It's the following. That's what the independent market lacks.
But the problem right now — and I don't know if it's a trend — but people are leaving brands because it's so saturated now. I feel like it's confusing. There's so many sub-brands, soft brands within the brand, and you don't even know what brand that is. There are so many new brands right now. I feel like it's no different from an independent. But I think what's been challenging for independents is the following — the repeat customers. That's where independents are leaving money.
And I think a lot of independent properties are trying really hard. And that's the reason why OTAs come in, because OTAs have that following. They have a lot of members. If there's a way independent properties can have a membership program that's sustainable — which I don't know — and there are third-party membership programs. "Oh, we joined this membership program and there's a lot of other independents in that." There are a lot of companies out there. But yeah, I think independents would be much more successful with that.
That's the reality today — that's why there are brands, that's why there are independents. And of course with that said, it's because there's a following, because there's a bigger return for consumers with brands. They get points, free elite status, feel good with the status — they get catered to more, special service.
Kin Sio: Yeah. I mean, I think that's a big challenge with independents. But to your point about repeat guests — yes, independents don't have the luxury of building that brand with a whole bunch of people within a flag on their properties. But it doesn't mean it's a free-for-all. I think that strategy on repeat guests — yes, many independents have to rely on OTAs to get the guest to even discover the hotel. But once the guest comes to your property, you can really own that journey. You can really wow these guests to get them to want to come back again.
You acquire these guests through the OTA the first time — you better have them book direct the second time. And there's no excuse for independent properties not to wow the guests to make them feel, "Oh, I feel very compelled to come back, and this time I'm going to have that direct relationship with the property." So I think those are what people should be thinking about — versus just "I'm not a brand, I give up."
Rodger Wada: Yeah, and I say that kind of broadly, but independents can easily get returning consumers. It's actually about being one of a kind. I think that's a bit of a cliche, actually, but it's really important. When you can provide something unique, you are going to become Instagrammable. You're going to attract attention because you're one of a kind.
And to be honest, a lot of independent properties to this day — I think it's because of a lack of different types of design firms, construction companies, especially in Hawaii — even mainland too. Every property kind of becomes similar. No one's fault. This day and age, it's expensive, construction. So it's hard to become unique. But that's a big challenge — how do you be cost-effective and unique? That's the million-dollar question. It's easy to pour a lot of money in and be unique. But that's where we get tested as a management company. How do we become unique? Whether it's the actual product or service — thinking outside the box.
Yeah, I think earlier I said brands have it easier getting return guests, but independents can. It might be a little bit harder, but...
Kin Sio: It's harder, but not impossible.
Rodger Wada: No, not at all.
Kin Sio: And in fact, there are actually some great pointers from our past episodes. Brent Shirotani, the previous Global Brand Director at Oracle Hospitality — we actually did a great recording talking exactly about that aspect of how somebody can cost-effectively build that uniqueness and brand story. So just for the listeners, go back to the episode with Brent Shirotani — there are actually some tips and tricks that someone can think about.
So, man, Rodger, all this knowledge — so much so far, it's just so great. I feel I have to bring you back at some point for another episode because I still have a long list of questions I want to ask you.
Rodger Wada: I'm looking forward to it, yeah.
Kin Sio: Yeah, but we should start getting into the last bit of the show here. Just thinking about back to the theme of humility and thinking about new people coming to the industry, to this discipline of revenue management, commercial strategy — if you could give one piece of advice to someone earlier in their career, thinking about maybe you 15, 20 years ago — what was something that you wish the younger Rodger would know before he started?
Rodger Wada: Yeah, I mean, there's three things. One is really focus on the fundamentals. Really understand why you're doing what you're doing. Not just learn the process, but once you really understand the "whys" — that sounds cliche, but I think it's important no matter which industry you go to. I think right now people are just so comfortable learning the process and going by their day, but if you really want to progress, I think that's important.
Two, it's passion. If you don't have passion, no matter how good you are — and for basketball fans, I think Kobe Bryant is one of that. He's not the most talented from a potential and talent standpoint, but I think he had the most passion amongst anyone. That's why he was able to get to where he is. No matter which industry you go to, I think that's so important. You can be the most gifted, smartest, most analytical person, but if you don't have the passion and the drive, you're probably not going to get too far.
And lastly, as you know, we've been talking about being humble. That's personally been my challenge. I always thought I was a humble person — which in certain aspects I was — but there are different levels and aspects of humility and humbleness. Just always having the mindset that I always have space to improve no matter where I am in my career, and being open to learn.
And listen. They always tell you — don't just hear things, actually listen and try to understand. Whatever someone is saying might not be 100% correct, but there's got to be some wisdom in that. Try to get that portion out. I think we're always so quick to dismiss — for example, a situation where a salesperson is speaking about revenue. Most people are like, "Nah, man, don't talk to revenue about revenue. We know what we're doing." But sometimes a different perspective might make you realize things. So don't just brush it off. Always be open to those conversations. And yeah, just always be open to learn. I think that's what got me far, to be honest.
Kin Sio: This is so great. Who is your biggest champion in your professional career, and what did you learn from this person that formed your philosophy?
Rodger Wada: I actually think about that a lot. I actually have two people, if you don't mind.
Kin Sio: Let's go for it.
Rodger Wada: Yeah. One individual's name is Sean Usabi, and he's been my mentor — not just professionally, but personally as well. I think he's the one that really taught me to just always be humble and always be open to learn. Yeah, I thought I understood what he was saying at the time — now I really understand.
The second individual, his name is Yohei Egashira. He was a tough boss at the time, and we're really good friends now, but he was the reason why I'm where I am today too. I was able to change because I was a really stubborn individual. Still am at certain things, but I became so much more open to changing my ways. It's good to be set in your own ways, obviously, have your own personality, but just learning when to be yourself and when to learn and change.
If I didn't have these two individuals as my mentors and leaders, I would not be where I am today.
Kin Sio: Wow, that's so great. Sean and Yohei — some of the other legends in this market. We're going to get them onto the show too. Rodger, where can people learn more about you?
Rodger Wada: That's a good question. I don't do a whole lot of social media, but feel free to email me. I'm always open to networking and catching up.
Kin Sio: Okay, yeah, we will put Rodger's contact information in the show notes. I don't want people to spam you, but we will find something that works so that people can reach out to you. All right, Rodger, it's been so great talking to you today. Thank you very much.
Rodger Wada: Thanks, Kin. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me.
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